Jun 18 2006
What is so bad about patriotism?
Note: The debate has continued between me and Roadkill. See the comments…
My occasional nemesis, Roadkill, has published an interesting blog that I think stands to be commented on. His post was entitled "Odd Things That Rile Neoconservatives".
VIA Orbusmax, we have a couple of links I find to be oddly connected… By their mutual membership in the “things that rile Neoconservatives” club…
First a blurb from the Orb himself:
“COMMENCEMENT AT THE EVERGREEN STATE COLLEGE: "Dancing, yelling, jars of peanut butter and jelly, and the newly minted graduate’s own rendition of the song ‘Happy Together’…"”…
My oh my… singing… peanut butter and jelly… We need an airstrike immediately!
Without some more supporting links, it would be hard to refute or confirm this, lets move on to his criticism.
I’ll never live long enough to figure out what bugs neocons about my Alma Mater. Get past the funny costumes, the place is very ordinary. Maybe it’s just the institutionalized disrespect of institutions; maybe a perception of disrespect is responsible for the venom.
That may indeed be the problem. Some people do actually believe that schools are bastions of liberalism, and recent studies validate it. College professors are notable for their liberal leanings, student groups are notoriously liberal at many schools.
Evergreen, is a interesting school. A who’s who list in Wikipedia lists about 50 famous grads. Being a Liberal Arts college, it’s no real surprise that it is an interesting list of actors, writers, artists, activists, musicians and the one odd porn star, just for fun.
The most notable name is that of activist Rachel Corrie. I won’t detail her history, but in summary she was protesting Israeli operations and was killed by a bulldozer. Some say accident, some say murder. I have no opinion. She can be looked at as either a noble activists, or a stupid kid, depending on your position. Some see her as the embodiment of a contradiction that liberal activists sometimes use, that we as a country should not interfere in other countries, and to work towards that end, they go and try to interfere in other countries.
This by the way is not a personalized critique of Evergreen, it is a general complaint about the state of our educational system. My blogs about the UW should be clear enough on that point.
I personally see her as a tragedy: The product of a Liberally controlled college system that teaches activism and send students off full of zeal and empty of common sense, human cannon fodder for the Professors who live vicariously in their students like beauty pageant moms live in the glory of child pageant star daughters. Maybe I will rant on that some day.
Moving on, he then takes the British press to task about the Dixie Chicks and the continuing drama of Natalie Maines’s big mouth.
Then there’s this little piece from the UK Telegraph: “How the Chicks survived their scrap with Bush”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/06/15/bmdixie15.xml
Natalie Maines, the “chick” who caused a furor in 2003 by expressing regret GWB was from her home state, has once again made utterance sure to leave neocons vein-popping, eye-bugging pissed:
As I am assured by liberals and moderates that they are patriotic too, it is a premature to say that only neocons will be offended.
“"The entire country may disagree with me, but I don’t understand the necessity for patriotism. Why do you have to be a patriot? About what? This land is our land? Why? You can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… I don’t see why people care about patriotism."”
Well…
Merrian Webster defines “patriotism” simply: “Love or devotion to one’s country.”
Well Wordnet expands on it a bit. The Webster’s definition is a bit shallow.
n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it.
I think that in today’s world we have really lost the understanding our grandparents had about sacrifice. We whine and complain when the gas prices go up, how would we have dealt with rationing? How would we have dealt with shortages of all kinds our ancestors had to endure in time of war?
Any love can be twisted… Patriotism isn’t necessarily a good thing.
Nor is it bad.
If patriotism is devotion, fanatical devotion of one’s country, then Adolf Hitler was among the greatest patriots that ever lived. Whatever else said about him, there can be no doubt he was fanatically devoted to the Germany he helped to re-create…
Perhaps, but then again perhaps not. Hilter and his ilk owed nothing to their countries, they wanted power. They wanted control and used the people and the land as their means. There has to be some defining characteristic of service and intent. Hitler was devoted to his vision of utopia, but there was nothing noble about it, and the disgusting nature of his actions displayed it.
The patriotism Hitler displayed and demanded was not to Germany, it was to himself.
Hitler never conceded the need for himself to sacrifice anything, he sacrificed those around him. That is the difference between a ruler and a dictator and between a fanatic and a patriot.
CS Lewis said this about Kings:
"For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when here’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land."
When I evaluate rulers or politicians, I keep it in mind.
And if patriotism is love, then it is a private, internal thing, something no person may judge in another. What if you love your country but think it has been corrupted to the point violence is required to save it? One man’s patriot is another man’s terrorist.
Certainly, even as the intent of patriotism can be twisted, so can the perception. But that is not a solid argument against patriotism.
Can a Timothy McVeigh be a patriot? Only if his side wins, I guess…
Oh, I realize that when the average person uses that term, especially in war time, what they really mean to express is solidarity with our Nation’s policies and respect for its institutions and traditions – it’s more a question of a qualified devotion to an amorphous thing we’re all in together. More or less…
But how did Maines mean it? She failed to qualify the levels of patriotism, so was this what she referred to? And I note you parade the more outrageous examples of people who did horrible things and justified it by calling it patriotism.
More or less. Most people in America will reject the more fanatical expressions of disrespect or disunity irrespective of the expresser’s motives – hence the original Dixie Chicks flap;
Two quick points about the Chicks. I wasn’t terribly offended by their words. I don’t doubt that some people in Texas agreed with them, even as some were not terribly happy about them either.
They had the right to say it, as I posted on their message board. Yes, I thought the time and place was silly, but oh well.
But the perception angle goes into play, and they paid a price for it. I appreciated it when she apologized, but now she has retracted that so whatever. We shall see. I try to keep in mind when the press goes gaga over celebs who say things like this that we pay them to be pretty or to sing good, but them being smart isn’t in the job requirements anywhere. The same with actors. It’s hard for me to get worked up over the heartfelt sincere remarks of a person whose job it is to deceive us into believing they are someone they are not, and we make them fabulously wealthy to do so. Discrenment is needed.
hence opposition to flag burning.
Something I personally don’t appreciate, but I oppose as an amendment.
But many if not most people also object to extreme measures taken by their government under a cover of patriotism; many are riled by the mere name of the Patriot Act and are deeply suspicious of the expansions of powers it confers and the concomitant limitations of freedom it implies.
I love the accusations about the patriot act. First, I am used to them using the acronyms to make it catchy. Big whoop.
But my really laughter is how all the complaints forget that the entire body of laws, with a couple of small additions took existing law and codified it to include terrorist and terrorism. I hear lots of hue and cry about lost rights, but I see little proof.
And many are disgusted by the arrogance of the power takers.
Meaning?
Does that make them unpatriotic? In the eyes of many neocons, I think it does. Many are proud to call the questioner unpatriotic, to accuse them of aiding the enemy. Some approve of the power takers… Some want to be power takers themselves.
My country right or wrong… But never right or left… Right only…
Oh, please. Sure, I agree that blanket calls and accusations about being unpatriotic are useless, and often knee jerk. But I have heard them from more then just neocons. And frankly I find some of the protests to be hypocritical, considering some of those complaining are willing to call their political enemies nazis and murderers, and other names. The fact is that both sides call the other names, it’s a part of the game. So why is it morally worse to call Natalie unpatriotic but ok to call the President a nazi?
Uber-patriots… Like Hitler or McVeigh? Perhaps like them before they were utterly consumed by their patriotism…
No. They were consumed by their fanaticism.
The entire country doesn’t disagree with you Natalie. I agree with you. Patriotism is only as good as the individual; often, it’s a brightly lit path to the dark side. It’s a sometimes necessary evil – which means if it isn’t necessary, it’s just evil. It’s a good way to justify evil deeds – extreme uses of power by Nations or individual men. Extremes that always have the same result: The diminishment of that most American of attributes, liberty.
Think about that, the next time the patriot calls…
I don’t get it I guessm but I think she does not either.
Patriotism is not blind loyal allegiance to the US, it is devotion to the principles the country was founded on, and a willingness to sacrifice to save them.
And yes, I think you can criticize the administration and still be a patriot. But I think it depends as much as why you say it as it does on who you say it to or what you say. I don’t consider the politicians like John Kerry who trash talks the war and the troops to appease a howling liberal anti war voter base to be a patriot, because his desire for power outweighs their principle. I consider someone like Hillary Clinton much more patriotic when she takes a stand on her principles in the face of those hostile potential supporters because the need to be right outweighs the desire to be popular.
Motives matter, and I will no more grant someone an automatic presumption of being patriotic then I will an automatic assumption that they are not.
But Maines takes it a step beyond that of just discerning the healthy from the sick, or the good from the bad. She contends it is irrelevent in general. Sorry, it isn’t. Maybe she does not see it as such, but the success of our nation will depend on true patriots who are willing to work and serve and sacrifice for the nation we built on such lofty goals as Freedom and Unity.
She can contribute to that as she wishes, or she can bask in the riches of liberty that is provided for her by those who do, with no other thought then a consideration of their foolishness.
Such is the freedom she has that comes to us all, paid for by the blood of patriots.
Patriotism matters now just as much, if not more then at any time in our short history. I am convinced that many people misuse it or protest it because they do not understand it, which brings us right back to the educational system.
My website says it all for me: I am unapologetic about being patriotic. The quotes below explain why.
A man’s country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.
~George William Curtis
Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.
~Adlai Stevenson
Tracked to Michelle Malkin and Sister Toldjah
7 Responses to “What is so bad about patriotism? ”
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I love America more than any other country in this world, and exactly for this reason patriotism means to me, looking out for this country and the freedom it represents…patriotism is a loyalty to what you believe in and taking a stand from the heart to represent that belief…its long lived in our actions, our support and contributions to those that put their life on the line for us in order that we can remain a free country.
And so, my fellow Americans , ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.
John F. Kennedy
God Bless America, ConnieSue
Well, you’re obviously not a neocon… Be careful; they may flay you…
I’ll take this big subject in small bites if you don’t mind…
First you demonstrate my point about TESC perfectly. Rachael Corrie is the most noted graduate? What about Matt Groening, the creator of the Simpsons? If your statement is accurate, that can only be the work of the right-biased MSM…
Next, you’re wrong about Adolph Hitler. Recall the nearly 20 years between the end of WWI - where he was gassed - and his usurpation of power. He argued for his beliefs, schemed for his beliefs, and did time for them. He believed very much in his vision of Germany. All too often we insist on coloring an idea with our ideals - two very different things. Patriotism is only as "good" as the individual, as I noted. Why bring it up? Because it’s a five-star case study in the corruption of the absolute idealist. All of the great monsters of the last century, possibly excepting Stalin and his pupil Saddam - Mao, Che, Castro, Hoh - were idealists and patriots before they were megalomaniacs. It was the very success of their patriotic nationalist campaigns that ruined them.
We have a few of those in America today…
“My country right or wrong… But never right or left… Right only…”… “Oh please.”
I’m going to unload a bit, but not on you, Karl. I cannot classify you as an uber-patriot. What exactly do I mean by that?
There is a bumper sticker: "I love my country, but I fear my government:" To the uber-patriots, drawing such a distinction, believing the American government is destroying America, is treason - as long as their party is in power. It isn’t just America, the land of the great idea to them: It’s America/the Republican Party/their church/their agenda. Follow all blindly or you can’t be a patriot in "their America."
So “Oh please” what? Malkin - whom you link - O’Rielly, Hannity, Cheney… Our new press secretary Snow… The wicked witch of the right, Anne Coulter… All are classic uber-patriots. And I’ll add a bit of pique: I’m damn tired of people right of center pretending the uber-patriots either are reasonable people or don’t exist - they aren’t reasonable, and they do exist. They are the new American Nazis and they are the perfect examples of patriotism corrupted: Patriotism used as a cover for hate, for a lust for death. Patriotism used to grab power - to justify hate - even to sell hate. Anne Coulter is getting rich off of her hate, as are all the others. She’s a whore who sells hate wrapped in patriotism, pure and simple. And her customers are perverts. I could fill pages with the bile she has written. But I won’t - you and your readers have read it all before. These people are so set in their views all they can do when confronted by other views is attack them - and that is the single most un-American thing imaginable. When it’s the ACLU or some left-wing professor promoting corruption, trying to steal power, selling hate I hear the far rights’ denunciations: What I hear reeks of hypocrisy in the face of the silence to the corruption in their midst.
You ask, what’s so bad about patriotism? Consider as a matter of philosophy:
In the wrong hands patriotism is divisive and destructive. It unites "us" - a good - but it often unites us against "them" - a road that can lead to evil, for it is generally true “they” are not evil, just evilly led.
Furthermore, as is often noted by many prominent thinking neocons, the peoples of most Nations cannot be held accountable for the governments they neither chose nor can overthrow. In this way we and a few of our Western allies are unique: We exert substantial power in the choosing of our governments. If our government does evil, then so do we. Thus the American patriot shoulders a unique burden.
In the process of its evolution the divisive nationalist form of patriotism which morphs into uber-patriotism therefore ignores a larger “patriotism:” The “patriotism” to the whole world; to mankind. For some, that is described religiously. I have often heard conservative politicians call themselves "Christians first, Americans second"… Comments like that almost always get a bye… What is a "Christians first, American second" patriot patriotic to?
Can one be a "human first, an earthling first, " an American second? Can allegiances grow and mature? Surely, they can change…
If not, we are all here because of an abomination. All of the founders of this Nation renounced one allegiance for another. Again, you may claim the end justified the means - but they were unpatriotic before they were patriots; oath-breakers before they were oath makers.
So when “Maines takes it a step beyond that of just discerning the healthy from the sick, or the good from the bad. She contends it is irrelevant in general,” perhaps she has a point. Perhaps she has considered the issue and concluded that in her world, it is irrelevant. She may be from Texas but like most of the people in her class she is largely a citizen of the world. If you are a “human first, an earthling first,” and an American second, maybe patriotism in this context is irrelevant.
And before you Bronx cheer me off the page, ponder how many globalists might secretly agree with that sentiment…
And a last item, a caveat you might not have noticed: That original Maines quote was clipped, and not by me. The comment offered sounds a little air-headed… Is she an airhead, or is a reporter trying to make her sound that way? Does our Brit author have an agenda?
Philosophy aside, consider the practical harms…
I’ve said it many times and I’ll repeat: We have slid centimeter at a time from a Nation who acted only in its own defense to a Nation that acts to defend its interests to a Nation that attacks not threats but shadows. We no longer operate form principle, unless the "principle" is our interests first ant the rest of the world be damned - Militarily, we only help the other guy when it suits our needs. Thusly we ignore the worst human rights abuses on the planet, committed daily by our cronies, and go after small fry. In the process we screw them and us. The vast middle was browbeaten by the agenda-driven uber-patriots into believing supporting the Iraq war was the patriotic thing to do - and now we’re screwed. Their miscalculation has totally destabilized the Middle East, and we may never get out of there. As long as Iran exists as a hostile entity, we can’t leave without taking the scenic route - through Tehran.
But that’s just fine for the uber-patriots - they wanted to take out Iran anyway… After all, once upon a time, the Iranians were ballsy enough to tell us to go to hell - the one thing the uber-patriots can’t live down.
Patriotism my ass. Show me a place and time it has accomplished good, and I’ll show you a place and time it has accomplished great evil. It’s fine for an individual to be privately patriotic; to love their land. It’s when you extend that to groups the trouble starts.
Maybe it’s just that I am a "patriot" too, but my view on what that is is so radically different that I can’t stand the taste their corrupted concept leaves in my mouth. I owe no allegiance to the shrub’s government, any more than I owed allegiance to slick willie. They are my servants, not my leaders. And they are damn poor servants. My "patriotism" is owed to the good idea on which this Nation was founded - not the bad uses worse people have put it to. If you want me waving a flag, do something about the corrupters who by no means can be said to uphold the true American values of representation, liberty, or the rights of the individual.
Otherwise, count me as a proudly “unpatriotic” patriot.
Well, you’re obviously not a neocon… Be careful; they may flay you…
Hehe.
I’ll take this big subject in small bites if you don’t mind…
First you demonstrate my point about TESC perfectly. Rachael Corrie is the most noted graduate? What about Matt Groening, the creator of the Simpsons? If your statement is accurate, that can only be the work of the right-biased MSM…
Well I noted him, but that wasnt my point. I will wager, at least locally, more people know who Rachel is. She is revered in left wing circles as a martyr of the highest order. If Bart Simpson had gradsuated, maybe….but the creator? naw.
Besides, more people would have noted Michael Richards, aka Kramer from Seinfeld.
Next, you’re wrong about Adolph Hitler. Recall the nearly 20 years between the end of WWI - where he was gassed - and his usurpation of power. He argued for his beliefs, schemed for his beliefs, and did time for them. He believed very much in his vision of Germany. All too often we insist on coloring an idea with our ideals - two very different things. Patriotism is only as "good" as the individual, as I noted.
Patriotism is also only as good as what you are being a patriot to. YEs the motives of the person are important but so is the intrinsic nature of the belief itself.
Why bring it up? Because it’s a five-star case study in the corruption of the absolute idealist. All of the great monsters of the last century, possibly excepting Stalin and his pupil Saddam - Mao, Che, Castro, Hoh - were idealists and patriots before they were megalomaniacs. It was the very success of their patriotic nationalist campaigns that ruined them.
I suppose. I see a dramatic difference between the ideals of the 3rd reich which were great as long as you were a non jewish german, and those of america which in principle apply to all people, regardless of gender, race, religion cor any other defining element.. Heck the recent spat of people trying to validate the rights of illegal aliens proves my point.
There is a bumper sticker: "I love my country, but I fear my government:" To the uber-patriots, drawing such a distinction, believing the American government is destroying America, is treason - as long as their party is in power. It isn’t just America, the land of the great idea to them: It’s America/the Republican Party/their church/their agenda. Follow all blindly or you can’t be a patriot in "their America."
A point of interest, is this any different when the parties switch?
So “Oh please” what? Malkin - whom you link - O’Rielly, Hannity, Cheney…
I also link Kos, Horsesass and a few other liberals. I openly express my difference of opinoins with some of these people.
Our new press secretary Snow…
Naw. Even Tony on his show has explained his position on that. He never complains about disagreement, he complains about people whose words and actoins express what he feels is a hatred of america. I have heard him criticize the adminstration enough times to make me think he is not a lock step.
The wicked witch of the right, Anne Coulter…
Be clear on one thing. Ann is not an uber patriot. She is an anti liberal. In the sense that she feels liberalism is dangerous to the ideals of america, she will protest it. She makes some sense in some cases, and not so much in others.
But people mischaractorize what she is, and they ignore her ideas at their peril. Her latest book is very good. I ignore some of the "jokes" as distractoins, and just try to see her points. I look forward to the organized rebuttals.
All are classic uber-patriots. And I’ll add a bit of pique: I’m damn tired of people right of center pretending the uber-patriots either are reasonable people or don’t exist - they aren’t reasonable,
Bull. Define reasonable? Must they agree with your comfort on it to be reasonable? I know many people who we would agree are uber patriots who are not only reasonable, but rational and thoughtful.
and they do exist. They are the new American Nazis and they are the perfect examples of patriotism corrupted: Patriotism used as a cover for hate, for a lust for death. Patriotism used to grab power - to justify hate - even to sell hate.
I would submit that the labeling here is useless and preforative. Just as me labelling the left as socialists is prejorative.
Anne Coulter is getting rich off of her hate, as are all the others.
Sure. Al Franken, Michael Moore…..George Soros maybe?
She’s a whore who sells hate wrapped in patriotism, pure and simple.
A whore? A bit strong maybe? Why is a person who apparently despises liberals as much as those liberals despise conservatives a whore, and they are just progressive? Are your ad hominem attacks any better then hers?
And her customers are perverts. I could fill pages with the bile she has written. But I won’t - you and your readers have read it all before. These people are so set in their views all they can do when confronted by other views is attack them - and that is the single most un-American thing imaginable. When it’s the ACLU or some left-wing professor promoting corruption, trying to steal power, selling hate I hear the far rights’ denunciations: What I hear reeks of hypocrisy in the face of the silence to the corruption in their midst.
Your indictment misses two things Dan.
You can bring out the examples of ehr all day long, i can answer it back at least 1 for 1 with liberals.
You ask, what’s so bad about patriotism? Consider as a matter of philosophy:
In the wrong hands patriotism is divisive and destructive. It unites "us" - a good - but it often unites us against "them" - a road that can lead to evil, for it is generally true “they” are not evil, just evilly led.
Semantics Dan. If there was no Them there would be no Us. The facxt it is a conflict of ideals makes it obvious there will be supporters and dissenters. Good and evil, left and right, me and you. The division of ideas is intrinsic to philosophy.
Furthermore, as is often noted by many prominent thinking neocons, the peoples of most Nations cannot be held accountable for the governments they neither chose nor can overthrow. In this way we and a few of our Western allies are unique: We exert substantial power in the choosing of our governments. If our government does evil, then so do we. Thus the American patriot shoulders a unique burden.
But our system is uniquely devised to have checks and balances to permit the redress of grievences, and to oust those in office who abuse their authority. So he not only shoulders the burdern, but the responsibility and means to fix it.
In the process of its evolution the divisive nationalist form of patriotism which morphs into uber-patriotism therefore ignores a larger “patriotism:” The “patriotism” to the whole world; to mankind. For some, that is described religiously. I have often heard conservative politicians call themselves "Christians first, Americans second"… Comments like that almost always get a bye… What is a "Christians first, American second" patriot patriotic to?
To the country subject to the morality of god.
Can one be a "human first, an earthling first, " an American second? Can allegiances grow and mature? Surely, they can change…
If not, we are all here because of an abomination. All of the founders of this Nation renounced one allegiance for another. Again, you may claim the end justified the means - but they were unpatriotic before they were patriots; oath-breakers before they were oath makers.
Again, semantics and irelevent examples. Why not keep in present tense and pratical terms?
So when “Maines takes it a step beyond that of just discerning the healthy from the sick, or the good from the bad. She contends it is irrelevant in general,” perhaps she has a point. Perhaps she has considered the issue and concluded that in her world, it is irrelevant. She may be from Texas but like most of the people in her class she is largely a citizen of the world. If you are a “human first, an earthling first,” and an American second, maybe patriotism in this context is irrelevant.
Sorry, the citizen of the world bit is too vague. And even if it isnt that does not necessarily mean that any actions our country takes are out of step with that uber lovalty. Isnt freeing another country from tyranny responding to the needs of our fellow world citizens? Wouldnt stopping nuclear developement in Iran, and North Korea?
And before you Bronx cheer me off the page, ponder how many globalists might secretly agree with that sentiment…
And a last item, a caveat you might not have noticed: That original Maines quote was clipped, and not by me. The comment offered sounds a little air-headed… Is she an airhead, or is a reporter trying to make her sound that way? Does our Brit author have an agenda?
Go back to my comment about the job description.
But to serious address it, I read the questoin in context, and it was fundamentally the same. Reading it icontext, she attacks her critics because they disagree. She indicts them form displaying their patriotism, and complains that they did so to cash in on her controversy. Then she moves on to denouncing patrotism.
In context, I think she doesnt get it, she has personalized it for too much and she can deal with it. She had been in the industry long enough to know she was contrastepping when she made her remarks. Her shock and amazement should not have been a surprise.
Philosophy aside, consider the practical harms…
I’ve said it many times and I’ll repeat: We have slid centimeter at a time from a Nation who acted only in its own defense to a Nation that acts to defend its interests to a Nation that attacks not threats but shadows.
Again, that is a matter of interpretation, and another place we disagree.
We no longer operate form principle, unless the "principle" is our interests first ant the rest of the world be damned - Militarily, we only help the other guy when it suits our needs. Thusly we ignore the worst human rights abuses on the planet, committed daily by our cronies, and go after small fry. In the process we screw them and us. The vast middle was browbeaten by the agenda-driven uber-patriots into believing supporting the Iraq war was the patriotic thing to do - and now we’re screwed. Their miscalculation has totally destabilized the Middle East, and we may never get out of there. As long as Iran exists as a hostile entity, we can’t leave without taking the scenic route - through Tehran.
I encourage you to show how Iraq and Afghanistan are really in our selfish interests, as opposed to lmilitarily in our ointerests.
But that’s just fine for the uber-patriots - they wanted to take out Iran anyway… After all, once upon a time, the Iranians were ballsy enough to tell us to go to hell - the one thing the uber-patriots can’t live down.
Sorry, we havent attacked yet. Get back to me.
Patriotism my ass. Show me a place and time it has accomplished good, and I’ll show you a place and time it has accomplished great evil. It’s fine for an individual to be privately patriotic; to love their land. It’s when you extend that to groups the trouble starts.
Good god, it is not so black and white Dan. Of course it has led to bad things. So have guns, cars, medicine, starbucks, computers, sports equipment and school teachers.
Mary Kay LeTourneau slept with a 13 year od student., so all teachers are perverts and we should close schools. Thats your logical equivelent.
Maybe it’s just that I am a "patriot" too, but my view on what that is is so radically different that I can’t stand the taste their corrupted concept leaves in my mouth. I owe no allegiance to the shrub’s government, any more than I owed allegiance to slick willie. They are my servants, not my leaders. And they are damn poor servants. My "patriotism" is owed to the good idea on which this Nation was founded - not the bad uses worse people have put it to. If you want me waving a flag, do something about the corrupters who by no means can be said to uphold the true American values of representation, liberty, or the rights of the individual.
Otherwise, count me as a proudly “unpatriotic” patriot.
I will display my flag daily, as I do daily at my house because I beleive in the ideals of our nation, not the people who may be in power, or thsoe in the media trying to gain power, but the history and ideals that are the foundation to the whole country.
If my leaders support those ideals, then they get my vote and support. If not they wont.
Either way, it is my choice, my discrenment and my decision to be a ptriot. And I am still proud of it.
Channelling Bill the Cat… PPPBBBTTTTHHHHH!!!
Too much to keep going with - but a fine discussion. I’ll just pick a couple of items…
No, you can’t let either side have a bye on any of the uber-patriot shenanigans… Within the context of your audience I think it’s pointless to mention people like M. Moore. I’m not even sure the left wing takes him seriously. How do you judge this? The marketplace. Moore’s films - the so-called anti-patriotic ones - haven’t done all that well, as I recall. Be sure to correct me if I’m wrong on that…
But Coulter is cleaning up… And I’m proud to be bigoted enough that I won’t give her a read. When she advocated forced religious conversion, I decided I’d just as soon ventilate her with my .45…. Lacking the opportunity, I certainly wont contribute to the harpie’s midden…
NOTHING is more vile to me personally than advocacy of forced religous conversion or other forms of religious coercion. And yes, that goes for the Moslems, too… But frankly, I’ll give them more of a bye than her: They were raised to accept such garbage - she has the benefit of a secular upbringing. Such barbarism coming from someone with an American background is simply unacceptable.
The Patriot act, BTW… It’s a lot like NAFTA… You may have noted the recent mini-flaps about a so-called "super state?" Those provisions were there in the original treaty, along with a timetable for implementation. Likewise the Patriot Act. The other shoe is coming, and some of the ramifications are downright wierd. Would you believe an offshoot of this is a program to tag all non-commercial farm animals? Just many of the other shoes… The law itself is a fireplug… Every dog "contributed" to it…
A final point to ponder. You advanced a definition for patriotism that included a willingness to sacrifice… Consider a paradox:
I’ve slammed Coulter et al for "cleaning up" on their patriotism. You at least cannot deny it has been a profitable exercise. Well, Maines lost her great big ass over this, and she’s the one who dismisses patriotism as irrelevant!
The Chicks - or at least their handlers - knew she cooked their goose when she dissed the shrub. Well, she could have apologised… But she "wasn’t ready to make nice." One big teary eyed spectacle, and their ratings would have zoomed back to the top. Instead, they stuck to their beliefs, their own kind of unacknowledged patriotism… And it cost them - maybe millions.
So, if sacrifice is an element of patriotism, it can be argued the person who considers patriotism to be irrelevant is actually a better fit than the so-called patriots - right wing or left - who pander to their markets…
Go figure…
Channelling Bill the Cat… PPPBBBTTTTHHHHH!!!
Ack!!
No, you can’t let either side have a bye on any of the uber-patriot shenanigans… Within the context of your audience I think it’s pointless to mention people like M. Moore. I’m not even sure the left wing takes him seriously. How do you judge this? The marketplace. Moore’s films - the so-called anti-patriotic ones - haven’t done all that well, as I recall. Be sure to correct me if I’m wrong on that…
Moore is actually quute successful when you remember that his movies, like Gore’s lakest yawnfest are documentaries.
Monetarily wise he is also making money hand ov er fist. Contrary to his poor working class Michigan wheite guy persona, he is a wealthy upper end New Yorker.
But Coulter is cleaning up… And I’m proud to be bigoted enough that I won’t give her a read. When she advocated forced religious conversion, I decided I’d just as soon ventilate her with my .45…. Lacking the opportunity, I certainly wont contribute to the harpie’s midden…
Thing is that leaves you to the mercy of the media and pundits to find ot what she is saying. #/4 of the way through Godless, and I have to say that she is either the most magnificant liar in the country, or the most dangerous person at exposing liberals. The fact is that if her facts are true, she is exposing a scandal and conspiracy of titanic proportion. If she is accurate. I dont have the resources to fact check her copious end notes. Someone else will, and when I read those books, we shall see.
NOTHING is more vile to me personally than advocacy of forced religous conversion or other forms of religious coercion.
What about forced secularism though? I too do not appreciate forcing anyone to a faith, but I similarly object to imposed santiization. Respect in tolerance has a lot of room to comprimise here.
And yes, that goes for the Moslems, too… But frankly, I’ll give them more of a bye than her: They were raised to accept such garbage - she has the benefit of a secular upbringing. Such barbarism coming from someone with an American background is simply unacceptable.
I think that is a cop out in some ways, but ok.
The Patriot act, BTW… It’s a lot like NAFTA… You may have noted the recent mini-flaps about a so-called "super state?" Those provisions were there in the original treaty, along with a timetable for implementation. Likewise the Patriot Act. The other shoe is coming, and some of the ramifications are downright wierd. Would you believe an offshoot of this is a program to tag all non-commercial farm animals? Just many of the other shoes… The law itself is a fireplug… Every dog "contributed" to it…
Sure, that’s why i rarely advocate to a politicial party, and I personally beleive the politicians in washington as a group are the problem, not one party over the other.
A final point to ponder. You advanced a definition for patriotism that included a willingness to sacrifice… Consider a paradox:
I’ve slammed Coulter et al for "cleaning up" on their patriotism. You at least cannot deny it has been a profitable exercise. Well, Maines lost her great big ass over this, and she’s the one who dismisses patriotism as irrelevant!
Sorry, no. You confuse sacrifice with consequence. The truth was she was a bit stuck on her own self importance, as many celebs arte, and probably expected that she would get the Sarandon/Moore/Baldwin treatment. Instead she forgot that while Hollywood sells movies, and the MSM sells papers with that tripe, the average country music fan is a bit more conservative and many uber patriotic. She shot her music base, and their music sales suffered for it. And They found a new firend named Toby Keith.
But the attitude she is displaying now is really diappointing. She could simply have just said, i am sorry you disagree, but that is my opinion. INstead she is just riding the anger pony. And her new albums sales started good, even though the tour dates are down. We shall see in the long run.
And it’s a shame. They are a good group, and very talented. It’s a shame they didn’t take Laura INgrahams advice: Shut up and Sing.
The Chicks - or at least their handlers - knew she cooked their goose when she dissed the shrub. Well, she could have apologised… But she "wasn’t ready to make nice." One big teary eyed spectacle, and their ratings would have zoomed back to the top. Instead, they stuck to their beliefs, their own kind of unacknowledged patriotism… And it cost them - maybe millions.
Not really, In a recent article, it notes that she HAD apologized, but that she had not taken it back.
So not ready to play nice has become her mantra in continuing a fight no one else wants to be in.
So, if sacrifice is an element of patriotism, it can be argued the person who considers patriotism to be irrelevant is actually a better fit than the so-called patriots - right wing or left - who pander to their markets
naw, I dont buy that. Had she clearly stated that i dont care if our record sales will go down, I am sayign it because I believe it serves a higher purpose to lose money and make a point, maybe. That is a rationed act of sacrifice for a cause.
Her remarks were thoughtless, off the cuff and didnt serve any cause at all but to be spiteful/
I have a hard time seeing devotion to an ideal in that. In the end she is the type of patriot who clings to the freedoms with a steel claw, but cares nothing about how she got them.
So be it. I support her free speech. But I will also disgree with it, and applaud those who likewise disagree with it. By her latest comments she has included not just the leaders she hates, but the average person who loves what america stands for. Including me. So I guess I don’t feel nice either.
Dixie Chicks and Saddam Portrait…
Funny Photo: Hat Tip: Code Red-Women for the Troops
I think a burka would be more fashionable for them living in another country….
Do the Dixie Chicks Hate America?…
While you are free to bash and degrade your fellow Country Singers, Country fans, Texas and America…we also have the same Freedom to not buy the screed your selling, to turn our backs on you, to not go to your concerts and to turn away from you.
…..